[mythtv-users] MythTV 0.21 and seca3 encryption on DVB-S

[David Lister]

Simon Hobson wrote:
> David Lister wrote:
>> First off, I'm not after anything - my setup is working, I just joined
>> the debate, because I wanted to bring some sanity into it. I hate the
>> smell of fear and I hate it especially on public & democratic forums. Of
>> course I know about all this, but except for a few zealots' fabrications
>> and truth bending, there's nothing to talk about. I could accept your
>> position on ethical merits, but not as a result of your scare tactics
>> and anyway, not from a person who regularly _circumvents_ protections
>> (e.g. playing DVD's on your Linux machines - CSS circumvention, didn't
>> you know?!!!).
>
> Actually I don't, what makes you think I do ? In any case, I'm not in
> the US myself and in the UK the legal system hasn't quite degenerated
> that far - but the twits in government are trying hard to catch up. It
> is true that I have most of my CDs on my MP3 player (I believe that's
> 'fair use' in the US, we have no such allowance in our copyright law).
In case it was not expressed clearly, "you" was meant in the plural
sense (those on the list being in opposition to my expressed stand), not
singular (i.e. you personally).

> The problem is that not all such use of a CAM&card is 'legal' in US
> law. It would depend on what the terms of service are, and many
> service providers will have small print in the contract restricting
> what you can do with their signal & card. Since a not insignificant
> use of such techniques IS by people breaching T&Cs, the list owner has
> stated that such discussions are off-topic through a desire to NOT get
> associated with the illegal uses of it AND to avoid any possible legal
> repercussions.
>
I'd like a citation for "not insignificant". :) Again, banned != off
topic. Seeing quite a lot of OT discussions here, I wonder why this
particular topic is completely *tabu*. If it was just OT, I wouldn't
even join in. :) Anyway, you just acknowledged my point - using SW CAM
(or HW CAM or any other singular method) is *not* inherently illegal -
not in the US, not anywhere. It depends on where, for what and by whom
for which provider it is being used, if at all. We might just as well be
discussing it for educational purposes only or our personal hobby
projects. I could of course see the harm in discussing particular
providers and means of circumventing their protection or breaching T&C,
but that's not is happening here. That is why it is not a threat for the
list, nor its members and as I hate to see people grovel, especially for
no reason, I stepped in with my $0.02. :)

> No I'm not "out of my goddamn mind". Have you been living on another
> planet for the last few years ? This isn't about what the government
> want, it's about what the well funded music/film/tv industry funded
> rottweiler lawyers want. I agree entirely about this "fear" business,
> but the way the DMCA is done, it only needs an accusation to start
> causing a lot of hassles and costs for those that run the list servers
> - and yes, the DMCA has already been used to stifle unwelcome comments
> with a "death by a thousand cuts".
>
How could I not know? That's why I was talking about fear of the
government, which is undeniable, *and* of big corporations against which
the US citizens are completely defenceless. It was you who mentioned HW
seizure and arrests - that is a government's job, yes? Or, to be more
precise, of the law enforcement organizations.

>>  SW CAM use doesn't involve anything
>> different from a standard HW CAM. In both cases, you feed it your
>> subscription card, encrypted signal and you get the same decrypted MPEG
>> stream. I understand you're mostly ignorant in matters of law, but come
>> on! Even laymen should be able to grasp this. Where exactly is the
>> illegal? I never found any DMCA paragraph actually dealing with this
>> topic - even in the most general terms. Is it "illegal" (in your minds)
>> to use CI+CAM with your DVB card? No?
>
> YES - if the supplier excludes such use in their T&C then it IS
> illegal under the DMCA. ANY time you remove a "technical protection"
> other than in accordance with permissions granted by the copyright
> owner then that IS a criminal act. That's why it's illegal (under DMCA
> in the US) to watch a CSS protected DVD on a Linux box in, but not
> illegal to watch the same disk, decrypted by the same key, with a
> licenced player.
>
> And you accuse me of being ignorant of the law !
I did, because many of the things MythTV is used for are just as
"criminal" and in breach of T&C, as using a SW CAM with some commercial
providers. Decide already what your point is, all I see is a collection
of relevant, but scattered pieces, posing to look like one "heavy"
argument. And that's why it fails. HW CAMs and CI discussions are not
banned, yet SW CAMs are.

I do not wish to scare you /guys/ out of your wits. You know, with the
police knocking at the server-room door... Nothing is going to change
here, I just wanted to leave a mark for future MythTV generations. :)
Perhaps they will see the light...


-- 
Dave