[mythtv-users] MythTV 0.21 and seca3 encryption on DVB-S

[Bill Williamson]

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Simon Hobson <linux at thehobsons.co.uk>wrote:

> David Lister wrote:
>
>   > Please remember that a lot of the developers are in the US, and the
>>
>>>  list servers are in the US. It might be perfectly legal for you, but
>>>  even assisting you to legally break encryption is a criminal offense
>>>  in the US. We'd all like to say "stuff the DMCA", it's a bad law that
>>>  criminalises several explicitly legal things - it it IS the law (in
>>>  the US, and now effectively in the UK under a different name) and
>>>  people coming under US jurisdiction have to bear it in mind.
>>>
>>>  THAT is why the list owner has requested that such topics be
>>>  off-limits on this list. The risk to the whole project is too great -
>>>  just one thread assisting you to legally view the programs you are
>>>  after would be enough to have the list servers seized, and the people
>>>  who run it arrested.
>>>
>>>  You now it's crap, I know it's crap, I think most people know it's
>>>  crap - but that's the law
>>>
>> SIDENOTE: I happen to have an unused housed server - I'd be more than
>> happy to setup a mailing list there, for exactly these kind of
>> discussions (Linux-related). Let me know if you think it would be of
>> some use.
>>
>> First off, I'm not after anything - my setup is working, I just joined
>> the debate, because I wanted to bring some sanity into it. I hate the
>> smell of fear and I hate it especially on public & democratic forums. Of
>> course I know about all this, but except for a few zealots' fabrications
>> and truth bending, there's nothing to talk about. I could accept your
>> position on ethical merits, but not as a result of your scare tactics
>> and anyway, not from a person who regularly _circumvents_ protections
>> (e.g. playing DVD's on your Linux machines - CSS circumvention, didn't
>> you know?!!!).
>>
>
> Actually I don't, what makes you think I do ? In any case, I'm not in the
> US myself and in the UK the legal system hasn't quite degenerated that far -
> but the twits in government are trying hard to catch up. It is true that I
> have most of my CDs on my MP3 player (I believe that's 'fair use' in the US,
> we have no such allowance in our copyright law).
>
>  I can't remember any forum where talk about playing DVD's
>> on Linux is forbidden and we're talking a "serious crime" here, not like
>> 100% legal use of SW CAM or HW CAM - inputs & outpus of which process
>> are identical and NO circumvention, NO copyright law breach and NO
>> illegal programming access takes place at all! Please, wake up and smell
>> the coffee.
>>
>
> The problem is that not all such use of a CAM&card is 'legal' in US law. It
> would depend on what the terms of service are, and many service providers
> will have small print in the contract restricting what you can do with their
> signal & card. Since a not insignificant use of such techniques IS by people
> breaching T&Cs, the list owner has stated that such discussions are
> off-topic through a desire to NOT get associated with the illegal uses of it
> AND to avoid any possible legal repercussions.
>
>  Don't tell me you really believe that US government would seize this
>> pathetic, yet public and somehow democratic, list just because the
>> international community was discussing a perfectly legal TOPIC. Arrests?
>> Are you out of your goddamn mind? :)
>>
>
> No I'm not "out of my goddamn mind". Have you been living on another planet
> for the last few years ? This isn't about what the government want, it's
> about what the well funded music/film/tv industry funded rottweiler lawyers
> want. I agree entirely about this "fear" business, but the way the DMCA is
> done, it only needs an accusation to start causing a lot of hassles and
> costs for those that run the list servers - and yes, the DMCA has already
> been used to stifle unwelcome comments with a "death by a thousand cuts".
>
> If discussions of how to use CAMs (soft or hard) in ways not authorised by
> the card issuers became common on this list then it would make the list a
> target for those rottweiler lawyers - causing hassle, disruption, and
> expense for the list owners. I can understand their wishes to avoid that.
>
>
>   SW CAM use doesn't involve anything
>> different from a standard HW CAM. In both cases, you feed it your
>> subscription card, encrypted signal and you get the same decrypted MPEG
>> stream. I understand you're mostly ignorant in matters of law, but come
>> on! Even laymen should be able to grasp this. Where exactly is the
>> illegal? I never found any DMCA paragraph actually dealing with this
>> topic - even in the most general terms. Is it "illegal" (in your minds)
>> to use CI+CAM with your DVB card? No?
>>
>
> YES - if the supplier excludes such use in their T&C then it IS illegal
> under the DMCA. ANY time you remove a "technical protection" other than in
> accordance with permissions granted by the copyright owner then that IS a
> criminal act. That's why it's illegal (under DMCA in the US) to watch a CSS
> protected DVD on a Linux box in, but not illegal to watch the same disk,
> decrypted by the same key, with a licenced player.
>
> And you accuse me of being ignorant of the law !
>
>  Perhaps it's because you are shitting your pants
>> just thinking about it. The problem is that Americans are pathetically
>> *afraid* of their government, and not just government - big corporations
>> as well, from which nobody can and will protect them. How saaad!
>>
>
> People have good reason to be "cautious" of big business. Even Microsoft
> had to bend over and take it from the movie industry - well and truly
> screwing up video handling performance in Vista to placate them. Unless
> you've been on another planet, you'll know about the bullying tactics used
> by the laywers employed by the film and music industries in savaging people.
> You must know the ones I'm thinking of - suing old grannies who don't have a
> PC, ringing up schools and pretending to be a 10year old girls parent in
> order to 'interrogate' her, and claiming blatantly inflated 'damages', etc,
> etc, etc.
>
>  And when we're talking illegal, it's not just DVD's - your HD-PVR crap
>> and recording via analog (blasters & firewire remote) actually *is* a
>> copyright breach & so called "piracy".
>>
>
> Actually, in the context, that isn't a crime. It's a breach of copyright
> which is a CIVIL matter (still, just). Once the signal is in the clear (eg
> the analogue) then it's not a criminal act under the DMCA to capture it, but
> it is an unlawful (different to illegal) act.
>
> Using a CAM+Card in a manner not authorised under the T&Cs of the supplier
> to get at the same signal IS a criminal act under DMCA - as well as being a
> copyright issue.
>
>
>
> Jelte Veldstra wrote:
>
>  Please remember that a lot of the developers are in the US, and the list
>> servers are in the US. It might be perfectly legal for you, but even
>> assisting you to legally break encryption is a criminal offense in the US.
>> We'd all like to say "stuff the DMCA", it's a bad law that criminalises
>> several explicitly legal things - it it IS the law (in the US, and now
>> effectively in the UK under a different name) and people coming under US
>> jurisdiction have to bear it in mind.
>>
>>
>> I told I wouldn't mention it again, but can't help to respond to Simon's
>> comment. The way I use my setup is not to "break" encryption! I pay a
>> monthly subscription fee to the Satellite provider. They provide me with a
>> subscription smartcard which gets updated each month (by the provider, as
>> long as I pay may fee) with information to decrypt the encrypted DVB
>> streams. This mechanism also makes sure that I can only decrypt what I pay
>> for (e.g. no extra sports channels). This is fully in line with the end user
>> terms of that provider, hence my claim on that it is legal. I can't imagine
>> that this is illegal in the States
>>
>
> Given that you say it's allowed by the providers T&C then it wouldn't be
> illegal. But note what's already been written, a lot of such use IS illegal
> and assisting illegal use would open up the list owners to potentially
> serious repercussions. Not to mention how easy it is for those with a vested
> interest in restricting what we can do to portray any project usable for
> illegal purposes as criminal itself - I'm sure you're aware how many often
> "bittorrent == criminal" is used by big business.
>
> The list owner has requested such discussion be off-topic, so even though
> in this instance it appears that it IS legal for you, the discussion is
> still not welcome.
>
> --
> Simon Hobson
>
>

If you're going to talk terms and conditions, most cable providers in the US
disallow recording when you sign up.  I reckon this list should ban all talk
about:
-playing dvds
-recording television that is not OTA
-watching a show on more than 1 frontend at a time
-commercial skipping
-watching a show that has been recorded more than once
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