[mythtv-users] MythTV 0.21 and seca3 encryption on DVB-S

[Simon Hobson]

David Lister wrote:

>  > Please remember that a lot of the developers are in the US, and the
>>  list servers are in the US. It might be perfectly legal for you, but
>>  even assisting you to legally break encryption is a criminal offense
>>  in the US. We'd all like to say "stuff the DMCA", it's a bad law that
>>  criminalises several explicitly legal things - it it IS the law (in
>>  the US, and now effectively in the UK under a different name) and
>>  people coming under US jurisdiction have to bear it in mind.
>>
>>  THAT is why the list owner has requested that such topics be
>>  off-limits on this list. The risk to the whole project is too great -
>>  just one thread assisting you to legally view the programs you are
>>  after would be enough to have the list servers seized, and the people
>>  who run it arrested.
>>
>>  You now it's crap, I know it's crap, I think most people know it's
>>  crap - but that's the law
>SIDENOTE: I happen to have an unused housed server - I'd be more than
>happy to setup a mailing list there, for exactly these kind of
>discussions (Linux-related). Let me know if you think it would be of
>some use.
>
>First off, I'm not after anything - my setup is working, I just joined
>the debate, because I wanted to bring some sanity into it. I hate the
>smell of fear and I hate it especially on public & democratic forums. Of
>course I know about all this, but except for a few zealots' fabrications
>and truth bending, there's nothing to talk about. I could accept your
>position on ethical merits, but not as a result of your scare tactics
>and anyway, not from a person who regularly _circumvents_ protections
>(e.g. playing DVD's on your Linux machines - CSS circumvention, didn't
>you know?!!!).

Actually I don't, what makes you think I do ? In any case, I'm not in 
the US myself and in the UK the legal system hasn't quite degenerated 
that far - but the twits in government are trying hard to catch up. 
It is true that I have most of my CDs on my MP3 player (I believe 
that's 'fair use' in the US, we have no such allowance in our 
copyright law).

>I can't remember any forum where talk about playing DVD's
>on Linux is forbidden and we're talking a "serious crime" here, not like
>100% legal use of SW CAM or HW CAM - inputs & outpus of which process
>are identical and NO circumvention, NO copyright law breach and NO
>illegal programming access takes place at all! Please, wake up and smell
>the coffee.

The problem is that not all such use of a CAM&card is 'legal' in US 
law. It would depend on what the terms of service are, and many 
service providers will have small print in the contract restricting 
what you can do with their signal & card. Since a not insignificant 
use of such techniques IS by people breaching T&Cs, the list owner 
has stated that such discussions are off-topic through a desire to 
NOT get associated with the illegal uses of it AND to avoid any 
possible legal repercussions.

>Don't tell me you really believe that US government would seize this
>pathetic, yet public and somehow democratic, list just because the
>international community was discussing a perfectly legal TOPIC. Arrests?
>Are you out of your goddamn mind? :)

No I'm not "out of my goddamn mind". Have you been living on another 
planet for the last few years ? This isn't about what the government 
want, it's about what the well funded music/film/tv industry funded 
rottweiler lawyers want. I agree entirely about this "fear" business, 
but the way the DMCA is done, it only needs an accusation to start 
causing a lot of hassles and costs for those that run the list 
servers - and yes, the DMCA has already been used to stifle unwelcome 
comments with a "death by a thousand cuts".

If discussions of how to use CAMs (soft or hard) in ways not 
authorised by the card issuers became common on this list then it 
would make the list a target for those rottweiler lawyers - causing 
hassle, disruption, and expense for the list owners. I can understand 
their wishes to avoid that.


>  SW CAM use doesn't involve anything
>different from a standard HW CAM. In both cases, you feed it your
>subscription card, encrypted signal and you get the same decrypted MPEG
>stream. I understand you're mostly ignorant in matters of law, but come
>on! Even laymen should be able to grasp this. Where exactly is the
>illegal? I never found any DMCA paragraph actually dealing with this
>topic - even in the most general terms. Is it "illegal" (in your minds)
>to use CI+CAM with your DVB card? No?

YES - if the supplier excludes such use in their T&C then it IS 
illegal under the DMCA. ANY time you remove a "technical protection" 
other than in accordance with permissions granted by the copyright 
owner then that IS a criminal act. That's why it's illegal (under 
DMCA in the US) to watch a CSS protected DVD on a Linux box in, but 
not illegal to watch the same disk, decrypted by the same key, with a 
licenced player.

And you accuse me of being ignorant of the law !

>Perhaps it's because you are shitting your pants
>just thinking about it. The problem is that Americans are pathetically
>*afraid* of their government, and not just government - big corporations
>as well, from which nobody can and will protect them. How saaad!

People have good reason to be "cautious" of big business. Even 
Microsoft had to bend over and take it from the movie industry - well 
and truly screwing up video handling performance in Vista to placate 
them. Unless you've been on another planet, you'll know about the 
bullying tactics used by the laywers employed by the film and music 
industries in savaging people. You must know the ones I'm thinking of 
- suing old grannies who don't have a PC, ringing up schools and 
pretending to be a 10year old girls parent in order to 'interrogate' 
her, and claiming blatantly inflated 'damages', etc, etc, etc.

>And when we're talking illegal, it's not just DVD's - your HD-PVR crap
>and recording via analog (blasters & firewire remote) actually *is* a
>copyright breach & so called "piracy".

Actually, in the context, that isn't a crime. It's a breach of 
copyright which is a CIVIL matter (still, just). Once the signal is 
in the clear (eg the analogue) then it's not a criminal act under the 
DMCA to capture it, but it is an unlawful (different to illegal) act.

Using a CAM+Card in a manner not authorised under the T&Cs of the 
supplier to get at the same signal IS a criminal act under DMCA - as 
well as being a copyright issue.



Jelte Veldstra wrote:

>Please remember that a lot of the developers are in the US, and the 
>list servers are in the US. It might be perfectly legal for you, but 
>even assisting you to legally break encryption is a criminal offense 
>in the US. We'd all like to say "stuff the DMCA", it's a bad law 
>that criminalises several explicitly legal things - it it IS the law 
>(in the US, and now effectively in the UK under a different name) 
>and people coming under US jurisdiction have to bear it in mind.
>
>
>I told I wouldn't mention it again, but can't help to respond to 
>Simon's comment. The way I use my setup is not to "break" 
>encryption! I pay a monthly subscription fee to the Satellite 
>provider. They provide me with a subscription smartcard which gets 
>updated each month (by the provider, as long as I pay may fee) with 
>information to decrypt the encrypted DVB streams. This mechanism 
>also makes sure that I can only decrypt what I pay for (e.g. no 
>extra sports channels). This is fully in line with the end user 
>terms of that provider, hence my claim on that it is legal. I can't 
>imagine that this is illegal in the States

Given that you say it's allowed by the providers T&C then it wouldn't 
be illegal. But note what's already been written, a lot of such use 
IS illegal and assisting illegal use would open up the list owners to 
potentially serious repercussions. Not to mention how easy it is for 
those with a vested interest in restricting what we can do to portray 
any project usable for illegal purposes as criminal itself - I'm sure 
you're aware how many often "bittorrent == criminal" is used by big 
business.

The list owner has requested such discussion be off-topic, so even 
though in this instance it appears that it IS legal for you, the 
discussion is still not welcome.

-- 
Simon Hobson

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