[mythtv-users] recorded shows

Ray Olszewski ray at comarre.com
Sun Jan 4 21:25:27 EST 2004


At 08:11 PM 1/4/2004 -0500, Tom Jaeger wrote:
>You do realize that all your arguments are moot as soon as you move to
>non broadcast -- pay services

No I don't. Could you explain why? The rest of what you say below does not 
make my interpretation of Betamax "moot", or even incorrect.

>You may be able to record cbs nbc and other tv channels but not off
>cable or direct tv .. Especially PPV HBO MAX etc...

In this context, "able to" is a bit ambiguous ... but I infer that you are 
talking about legal rights, not technical capabilities, since we all know 
that it is *technically* feasible to record these channels.

As I recall, some of the premium cable services -- HBO, Cinemax, The Movie 
Channel -- were in existence at the time of the Betamax decision. Certainly 
cable itself was around. And that decision does not seem on its face to 
distinguish broadcast from cable-only channels when it says "this record 
amply ... supports the District Court's conclusion that home time-shifting 
is fair use" and "[o]ne may search the Copyright Act in vain for any sign 
that the elected representatives of the millions of people who watch 
television every day have made it unlawful to copy a program for later 
viewing at home". (If it does, perhaps you could direct me to the relevant 
section?)

Or if you have some guide other than Betamax that supports this 
distinction, could you reference it?

>The reason you don't see any lawsuits against people making private
>tapes is the companies don't care.  Its like J-walking (who cares).

This might appear true from the perspective of 2004 ... but only because 
companies have adjusted their business models to 20-year-old case law. I am 
old enough to remember the early days of VCRs, and TV networks and 
copyright owners back then reacted like the sky was falling. (Of course, 
that was when they tried to sell pre-recorded tapes for $70 or so.) And 
recall that at about the same time, their audio breathren managed to 
"negotiate" such burdensome restrictions on DAT recorders that no consumer 
market for DAT ever did develop. Back then, they definitely cared.

You still see, as recently as last year, blather from network execs about 
how the ability to fast-forward through commercials with TiVo-like systems 
is "stealing" ... I don't remember the individual involved, but he was 
quite widely quoted, partly because a reporter asked if leaving the room 
during commercials to pee was also "stealing", pretty much leaving the exec 
with no sensible answer.

>I am not saying we should not be doing this .... After all I am... I
>even added a DVD-+R to my system

If you are saying something like "We're all breaking the law, even me, but 
who cares?" ... well, that is your privelege. Let your conscience be your 
guide.

Personally, I don't think I am violating US law by recording shows for my 
own later viewing, and I think Isaac has, here on the Myth list, been quite 
careful to draw a line between legal and (at least presumptively) illegal 
activities, limiting Myth to legal functionality.

(You'll recall that what started this thread was a question about getting a 
copy of a missed show. Quite rightly, the only response that specific query 
got was immediate dismissal, with the explanation that that sort of show 
swapping is almost surely a copyright violation -- the "almost" part just 
my acknowledgement that this list is not a discussion among lawyers.)

>All I have been saying is Fair use does not apply to all of us nor to
>all channels. I believe just TV you get off an antenna.

Initially, you seemed to be saying much more than that, including that 
"fair use" did NOT cover recording of broadcast, "off an antenna" TV. Sorry 
if I (and, it appears, others here) misread you. Even so, I don't know what 
you base *this* more limited belief on. I read Betamax to cover, at a 
minimum, timeshifting of any channel a subscriber has legal access to view, 
as long as the recording is for personal, non-commerical use.

We will probably face new rules for recording of true digital TV, but that 
will be because new law will govern that activity. This is what we should 
be talking, and worrying, about.





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