[mythtv-users] Fix for forced subtitle problems

[Paul Harrison]

On 16/12/2023 14:18, David Hampton via mythtv-users wrote:

> On Sat, 2023-12-16 at 12:42 +0000, Paul Gardiner wrote:
>> On 16/12/2023 02:12, Angela via mythtv-users wrote:
>>> In my previous mails, I mentioned several times some misbehavior
>>> which exists since many versions, which I think should be fixed
>>> first, or what I suggested to not differentiate between forced and
>>> non-forced, which makes the interaction much easier.
>>> I am still hoping for comments.
>>>
>>> I have one request, please do not change the behavior of TOGGLECC.
>> I don't think you need to worry about this going in against your
>> wishes.
>> I'm not a dev and can't just force this in. I wouldn't want to, in
>> any
>> case, without consensus. You are the only person who's taken any
>> interest in this and you don't like it. I don't think it's going in.
>>
>> I wish you'd had the chance to actually try it before making up your
>> mind - not with test videos - but in the wild, rather than imagining
>> the
>> scenarios, but that's my fault for not managing to get it to work on
>> master. I've looked further and I can't see what the problem is. I'm
>> parking it for now. I might return to it when 34 comes out and
>> master,
>> for a while, will be close to what I'm running.
>>
>> I didn't reply to many of your comments because I was hoping to wait
>> for
>> you to have tried it. Also I have no interest in trying to fix all
>> the
>> other misbehaviours. Plus, I find it very difficult to read very long
>> detailed natural language pros, especially with all the references to
>> forced and non-forced. I'm much happier dealing with one point at a
>> time.
>>
>> I've just reread your previous posts. I believe I understand the
>> points
>> you are making. I'll have one last go to contrast what I think is
>> your
>> point of view with mine.
>>
>> I think I've found a better way to explain this with new terminology.
>> I'll introduce a 3rd state: in addition to having On and Off, let's
>> include Almost Off. I'll use Almost Off to refer to having a forced
>> subtitle active. I think Almost Off is a good descriptive term
>> because
>> when a forced subtitle is active, mostly you see no subtitles. You
>> could
>> be fooled that subtitles are actually off, until just at a few
>> specific
>> points in the video, someone speaks Dothraki or Na'vi. I'm reserving
>> the
>> term On for showing a full subtitle. So in those terms:
>>
>> (I'm going to assume that the global setting "subtitles enabled" is
>> false to keep things simple - for me - I like things simple).
>>
>>
>>
>> Option 1 - leave it as it is
>>
>> 	If a video has no forced subtitle track then the player
>> starts in the
>> Off state. TOGGLECC toggles between Off and On.
>>
>> 	If a video does have a forced subtitle track then the player
>> starts in
>> the Almost Off state. TOGGLECC changes internal state, but has no
>> effect
>> on whether or which subtitle is shown. To get to the On state, you
>> have
>> to use the menu to explicitly choose a non-forced subtitle. And once
>> you've done that, you have to use the menu again if you want to
>> return
>> to the a forced subtitle.
>>
>> I think we both agree that that behaviour is not desirable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Option 2 - my interpretation of what you are suggesting
>> 	
>> 	Whether a video has forced subtitles or not, the player
>> starts in the
>> Off state. TOGGLECC toggles between Off and On. If you want the the
>> Almost On state, you have to use the menu to explicitly choose a
>> forced
>> track, and after doing so, you have to use the menu to get back to
>> the
>> On state.
> I have not read the entire conversation, but I think this option is
> wrong.  If a video has a forced subtitle track and it isn't displayed,
> how will the user ever know that it is there and that they need to turn
> it on?  The whole point of a forced subtitle is that when the
> characters suddenly start speaking Japanese (or Klingon, or whatever)
> that you are still able to follow the plot.
>
>> That's certainly an improvement over Option 1. It also has the
>> advantage
>> that we wouldn't even need the third state: On and Off alone are
>> sufficient if we treat all tracks equally. The simplicity is nice. My
>> objection is that it throws away a useful feature. I find it very
>> useful
>> to have a forced track appearing automatically, and to be able to go
>> between that and a full track with a single button press.
>>
>>
>> Option 3 - what my commits do (although seemingly not on master)
>>
>> 	If a video has no forced track then the player starts in the
>> Off state. TOGGLECC toggles between Off and On.
>>
>> 	If a video does have a forced track then the player starts
>> in the
>> Almost Off state. TOGGLECC toggles between Almost Off and On. If you
>> want no subtitles at all, not even forced then you have to use the
>> menu to and select "Disable forced subtitles", whereupon TOGGLECC
>> will then toggle between Off and On.
>>
>> In my opinion this is the optimal behaviour. It has more complexity
>> in
>> the programming, but is actually easier to use. You can still use
>> TOGGLECC to obtain the full subtitles at any time, when you mishear
>> something, but you get the non-forced automatically which you're
>> likely
>> to want because you don't understand Dothraki.
> I agree that this is the optimal behavior.
>
> David


Yep I agree with David this seems to be the way they should work. 
Obviously if there are no subtitles or forced subtitles don't show the 
option to turn them on in the menu's etc.


Paul H.