[mythtv-users] Fix for forced subtitle problems

[David Hampton]

On Sat, 2023-12-16 at 12:42 +0000, Paul Gardiner wrote:
> On 16/12/2023 02:12, Angela via mythtv-users wrote:
> > In my previous mails, I mentioned several times some misbehavior
> > which exists since many versions, which I think should be fixed
> > first, or what I suggested to not differentiate between forced and
> > non-forced, which makes the interaction much easier.
> > I am still hoping for comments.
> > 
> > I have one request, please do not change the behavior of TOGGLECC.
> 
> I don't think you need to worry about this going in against your
> wishes. 
> I'm not a dev and can't just force this in. I wouldn't want to, in
> any 
> case, without consensus. You are the only person who's taken any 
> interest in this and you don't like it. I don't think it's going in.
> 
> I wish you'd had the chance to actually try it before making up your 
> mind - not with test videos - but in the wild, rather than imagining
> the 
> scenarios, but that's my fault for not managing to get it to work on 
> master. I've looked further and I can't see what the problem is. I'm 
> parking it for now. I might return to it when 34 comes out and
> master, 
> for a while, will be close to what I'm running.
> 
> I didn't reply to many of your comments because I was hoping to wait
> for 
> you to have tried it. Also I have no interest in trying to fix all
> the 
> other misbehaviours. Plus, I find it very difficult to read very long
> detailed natural language pros, especially with all the references to
> forced and non-forced. I'm much happier dealing with one point at a
> time.
> 
> I've just reread your previous posts. I believe I understand the
> points 
> you are making. I'll have one last go to contrast what I think is
> your 
> point of view with mine.
> 
> I think I've found a better way to explain this with new terminology.
> I'll introduce a 3rd state: in addition to having On and Off, let's 
> include Almost Off. I'll use Almost Off to refer to having a forced 
> subtitle active. I think Almost Off is a good descriptive term
> because 
> when a forced subtitle is active, mostly you see no subtitles. You
> could 
> be fooled that subtitles are actually off, until just at a few
> specific 
> points in the video, someone speaks Dothraki or Na'vi. I'm reserving
> the 
> term On for showing a full subtitle. So in those terms:
> 
> (I'm going to assume that the global setting "subtitles enabled" is 
> false to keep things simple - for me - I like things simple).
> 
> 
> 
> Option 1 - leave it as it is
> 
> 	If a video has no forced subtitle track then the player
> starts in the 
> Off state. TOGGLECC toggles between Off and On.
> 
> 	If a video does have a forced subtitle track then the player
> starts in 
> the Almost Off state. TOGGLECC changes internal state, but has no
> effect 
> on whether or which subtitle is shown. To get to the On state, you
> have 
> to use the menu to explicitly choose a non-forced subtitle. And once 
> you've done that, you have to use the menu again if you want to
> return 
> to the a forced subtitle.
> 
> I think we both agree that that behaviour is not desirable.
> 
> 
> 
> Option 2 - my interpretation of what you are suggesting
> 	
> 	Whether a video has forced subtitles or not, the player
> starts in the 
> Off state. TOGGLECC toggles between Off and On. If you want the the 
> Almost On state, you have to use the menu to explicitly choose a
> forced 
> track, and after doing so, you have to use the menu to get back to
> the 
> On state.

I have not read the entire conversation, but I think this option is
wrong.  If a video has a forced subtitle track and it isn't displayed,
how will the user ever know that it is there and that they need to turn
it on?  The whole point of a forced subtitle is that when the
characters suddenly start speaking Japanese (or Klingon, or whatever)
that you are still able to follow the plot.

> That's certainly an improvement over Option 1. It also has the
> advantage 
> that we wouldn't even need the third state: On and Off alone are 
> sufficient if we treat all tracks equally. The simplicity is nice. My
> objection is that it throws away a useful feature. I find it very
> useful 
> to have a forced track appearing automatically, and to be able to go 
> between that and a full track with a single button press.
> 
> 
> Option 3 - what my commits do (although seemingly not on master)
> 
> 	If a video has no forced track then the player starts in the
> Off state. TOGGLECC toggles between Off and On.
> 
> 	If a video does have a forced track then the player starts
> in the 
> Almost Off state. TOGGLECC toggles between Almost Off and On. If you 
> want no subtitles at all, not even forced then you have to use the
> menu to and select "Disable forced subtitles", whereupon TOGGLECC
> will then toggle between Off and On.
> 
> In my opinion this is the optimal behaviour. It has more complexity
> in 
> the programming, but is actually easier to use. You can still use 
> TOGGLECC to obtain the full subtitles at any time, when you mishear 
> something, but you get the non-forced automatically which you're
> likely 
> to want because you don't understand Dothraki.

I agree that this is the optimal behavior.

David