[mythtv-users] MS media center

[Christopher Meredith]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Chris Petersen <lists at forevermore.net> wrote:
> On 02/28/2010 05:13 PM, Christopher Meredith wrote:
>
>>> How are you not a party to it?  You are either a legit owner of MCE, in
>>> which case you accepted the EULA and are accessing the MS data service
>>> with an unauthorized piece of software, or you do not own MCE but are
>>> still accessing the MS data service with an unauthorized piece of
>>> software.  The TOS applies to the data service, NOT MCE.  This is why
>>> websites have terms of use -- you are a party to them by using the
>>> website, regardless of whether or not you agreed to them, they are
>>> posted publicly and it is your responsibility to accept them (IANAL, but
>>> I'm pretty sure this has been held up in court enough times to set
>>> precedent).
>>
>> This is distinction between the so-called "browse-wrap" licences and
>> "click-wrap" licensces (both deriving their names from "shrink wrap"
>> licences; you know the ones that say "By opening thi package you agree
>> to the following terms..."). Browse-wrap licenses are the type that
>> you have to look for, usually by a link in the page footer. Click-wrap
>> licenses are the ones that pop up and don't let you continue until you
>> click "Accept." The rule is that Click-wrap licenses are enforceable
>> contracts against the person who "accepts" them, while browse-wrap
>> licences are not. In this case, at best, we're dealing with a
>> browse-wrap license for a person who does not own MCE and who has not
>> accepted its EULA. I say "at best" because in my case, I have not even
>> ben officially presented with the EULA and even if I were, I would
>> reject it. If I had to "click through" the EULA to get data from the
>> MCE servers, it would be a different story.
>
> You're missing the point, though.  You're saying it's not enforceable
> (which may or may not be the case -- I'm not a judge), I'm saying that
> you *are* party to the data service TOS.  Any person accessing that data
> service is.  If you don't personally feel any moral obligation to honor
> the TOS, then that's your prerogative.  It's still wrong, and in
> violation of what the website owner (Microsoft) intends the service to
> be used for.
>

I'm not trying to be contentious. Someone (not me) early on mentioned
mc2xml and I responded with a "howto" on using it with MythTV. Because
of misinformation in the past in other forums, I preemptively
explained why mc2xml is not illegal simply because it violates a
Microsoft EULA. In my experience, people have become so accustomed to
corporate-driven legal policy that they operate with a tacit
assumption that anything the corporations dislike must somehow be
illegal.

After that, I've been on the defense (and I still don't understand the
hostility). Beyond that, I actually enjoy this. I don't have a dog in
the fight, it's just an academic exercise for me, and one that I
enjoy. As for the contention above, it simply isn't true that using a
service makes me a party to the TOS. Unless and until I manifest an
intention to accept those terms, they are nothing more than another
person's (or company's) wishes, which I am free to observe or
disregard according to my whim. You should be glad this is the case.
Imagine the possible impacts to your freedom if corporations could
unilaterally control you that way.

> The other point that you are continuously missing is that because mc2xml
> is closed source, you DO NOT KNOW what sort of EULA or TOS or whatever
> is being agreed to for you.  For all you know, mc2xml is accessing the
> data over a secure connection, impersonating a randomly-generated MCE
> installation (which I believe would make it wire fraud, a felony, or at
> least be a violation of the DMCA).  You can't know.

At this point, you are mostly correct. While it is impossible for
anyone besides an agent to accept a TOS or EULA for you, it is
possible that mc2xml is performing some nefarious behind-the-scenes
devilry to achieve its results. This could constitute a violation of
the Computer Fraud and Abuse act. While the CFAA generally requires
that the violator *knowingly* perform the offending act, I wouldn't
want to be the one to have to establish the precedent on that.

I recalled reading a while back something on how mc2xml works, but I
can't find it anymore (assuming I'm even remembering correctly). I'll
shoot the dev an email on the subject.

> I won't continue this discussion (because it's pointless -- you've
> already made up your mind about things, and are obviously either so poor
> that you can't afford $0.054/day, or so cheap that you put a fictional
> Scrooge to shame).  My point was not to argue legality, but morality.
> You give users of open source software (and by some extent, its
> developers) a bad name by making it easier for large companies to view
> us as thieves and (black-hat) hackers.  As one of the founders of SD,
> and a long-time MythTV developer, I feel both sorry for and insulted by
> such actions.

No need to be insulted. I may be cheap, but the main reason I use
mc2xml (and probably the reason I've been running Linux for the past
decade) is because I like the do-it-yourself feeling. Sure, SD is easy
to set up and works out-of-the-box, but where's the fun in that? As a
developer, I'm sure you can understand the sense of accomplishment
that comes from spending hours trying to figure out something you
didn't understand to begin with and finally achieving a favorable
result. If SD became free tomorrow, I'd probably keep using mc2xml
simply because I feel like I have some ownership of it, at least on my
system.

Besides, as a Myth dev, you *have* to be aware that the TV studios
already don't like MythTV. Someone like me who merely points out that
a listings grabber doesn't violate any laws (that I presently know of)
is not going to give a Hollywood exec a negative impression of an
open-source software project that he already thinks is being used to
facilitate the piracy of his content and reduce his advertising
revenue.

Think of if this way: mc2xml is to EPG listings what the HD-PVR is to
the programming content.