[mythtv] TiVo Out! MythTV In! Help me buy the right stuff...
Chris Liscio
mythtv-dev@snowman.net
Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:06:26 -0500
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Actually John, my site mentions the TVWonder PCI, and not the VE. I had
listed the TVWonder VE originally in my spec on that page, but changed =
it on
Issac's recommendation. The ability to do stereo preserves the dolby
surround for shows that support it.
=20
Also, my TVWonder PCI has been working absolutely perfectly with no =
problems
on my machine. I have not had to do any weird things to get it working
other than just checking off v4l support in my kernel.
=20
So my machine and the mythtv box are only slightly different (until
tomorrow...)
=20
Vid Cap card: ATI TVWonder PCI
Video Out option (card or external): GeForce 2 MX400 (Asus V7100 pro or
Inno3D Tornado MX400)
Audio card: On-board ES1371 on my current box, SiS 730S chipset as of
tomorrow
CPU, RAM, HD: AthlonXP 1700+ (vs. 1800+ on the GrooveBox), 512MB SDRAM =
(vs.
256MB on the GrooveBox), 40GB Maxtor (vs. 40GB WD on the GrooveBox)
Remote ctrl solution: IRMan (vs. the homebrew lirc solution for the
GrooveBox)
Linux variant: Debian 3.0
Comments: I will have more information for the list about how the =
GrooveBox
will work with MythTV soon. I am getting myself the mainboard to test =
all
the chipset functionality. Also, I highly recommend the GeForce cards
because of the nvtv app.
=20
Hope this helps somewhat. I will be keeping my GrooveBox page up to =
date,
so feel free to check back.
=20
Cheers,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: mythtv-dev-admin@snowman.net [mailto:mythtv-dev-admin@snowman.net] =
On
Behalf Of John
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:36 PM
To: mythtv-dev@snowman.net
Subject: Re: [mythtv] TiVo Out! MythTV In! Help me buy the right =
stuff...
Hi Chris,
=20
Thanks for the tips.. I've checked out the sites you mentioned below =
and
the only hardware recommended is an ATI TV Wonder VE. Is this the best =
h/w
to go with? I thought Isaac wasn't too hot on these cards? I noticed in =
the
thread on the Buffer Flushing that Harondel is using TWO tuner cards and =
a
HARDWARE decoder (dxr3). This sounds like the way to go, no?
=20
I guess it would be REALLY useful if there was someplace everyone could =
go
and put in their H/W config and how their performance is. I searched the
archives but didn't find anyplace that everyone threw their 2 cents in.
Bits and pieces scattered here and there about this card or driver.
How about if people just chime in with their current:
=20
Vid Cap card:
Video Out option (card or external):
Audio card:
CPU, RAM, HD:
Remote ctrl solution:
Linux variant:
Comments:
=20
They can say how much cpu they're using up at a given res, how happy =
they
are with this config, how stable, if simultaneous record/play works =
well,
etc...
=20
How about it? What's the best way to collect all this info from =
everyone
into one thread so we can all benefit and make the right decisions for
future hardware?
=20
Thanks!
John
=20
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chris Liscio <mailto:chris@supermegaultragroovy.com> =20
To: mythtv-dev@snowman.net=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: [mythtv] TiVo Out! MythTV In! Help me buy the right =
stuff...
Hi John,
=20
Someone has set up a site at www.freeplaytv.org, and I am working on
www.supermegaultragroovy.com/mythbox to help people just like you that =
are
going shopping for a new box. You could either try a "buy everything
that'll work" solution, or just use the parts either of those sites list =
to
build your own machine.
=20
Along with that, you can search the archives (a link is posted on
www.mythtv.org) to help see if anything particular is supported or not.
=20
Hope this helps,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: mythtv-dev-admin@snowman.net [mailto:mythtv-dev-admin@snowman.net] =
On
Behalf Of John
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 5:40 PM
To: mythtv-dev@snowman.net
Subject: [mythtv] TiVo Out! MythTV In! Help me buy the right stuff...
Hi all,
=20
First time member of the list here, but hope to be quite active. I need
your help in selecting the right equipment to setup my new MythTV =
system. I
know that there are lots of choices for video output, capture, remotes, =
etc.
and don't want to make a wrong decision. Thanks in advance for your =
help!
Background...
I currently have a ReplayTV and a TiVo. I'm going to be giving the Tivo
(which we like better than Replay by the way - actually we love the =
Tivo) to
my in-laws for a Christmas present. Reason we're giving it away is 1) =
The
"free" store demo programming subscription has expired and we have to =
cough
up $250 for lifetime which I just hate, 2) It's only 14 hours (and I =
know I
could add a hard drive), my (retired) in-laws really need this - they =
watch
TV about 10 hours a day easy, the whole family is going in on the $250 =
so
the subscription is covered. Anyway, after using both Replay and TiVo =
for
over a year, our family of four is totally SOLD on a PVR. They're =
simply
awesome. Tivo is the best and their remote and interface is =
outstanding.
Well, anyway, I really like the idea of using a PC with a network card =
wired
into our home network to our cable modem, and being able to edit out
commercials, send to other PCs in the house, etc. I think MythTv is the
answer. It blows away everything else out there.
=20
Equipment...
I have recently freed up a Dell Dimension 8100 PIII-800 w/512mb RAM and =
80gb
7200rpm drive, SoundBlaster 64 PCI. I'll need to buy a video capture =
card,
video card with video out, and wireless remote/recvr. This system will =
be
sitting in our family room and will be wired up to our TV at all times.
I'll tuck the keyboard, processor and 14" monitor out of the way for the
occasional updates, etc. but I want the remote to be the main control =
for
daily use. That's why it is so important that it's as powerful as =
possible.
I know that MythTV can make do with something like 4 arrows and Enter, =
but
if I've got a pause, play, rec, stop, ff, rew, skip back, slow mo, last
channel, vol up/down and channel up/down, I'll be all set!
=20
Typical Use...
We'll mostly use it for recording shows for later playback, and =
timeshifting
- watching shows delayed to eliminate the need for watching commercials =
and
allow pausing to do other things. We also want to be able to watch
pre-recorded shows while recording new live ones. Dual tuners would be =
a
fantastic addition, but I understand it requires h/w assistance. Ok, so =
I'm
game? I also like being able to edit out commercials and then save to =
tape
will be nice for those "special" shows that we want to archive. The =
unit
will get used a LOT by our typical family of four (kids 12, 13) so a =
great
interface like MythTv is essential.
=20
What I need...
I need you "experts" out there to help me go shopping! I already bought =
and
returned an ATI All-in-wonder 8500 DV. It worked, but the on-screen =
guide
was lame with ads filling up 1/3 of the screen, it couldn't record live =
and
play back pre-recorded shows simultaneously, a/v got out of sync easily, =
and
it crashed too much. So, I'm back to square one. While I'm mainly a
Windows s/w developer by profession, I have tinkered with various =
flavors of
Linux and am willing to reformat the h.d. to any install you all =
recommend.
The sole purpose of this machine is a PVR so the O/S is irrelevant.
Whatever flavor is most "supported" and "stable" is all that counts.
=20
So...
Can you please tell me, if you had to start making a clean fresh system,
what would be your recommended:
1) Capture card
2) Video output card (S-Video would be nice)
3) Remote control & receiver (the more powerful the better!)
4) Linux version (stable and compatible is all I want)
5) Is there a hardware encoder/decoder card out there? If so, which one =
to
buy?
6) Do any of those USB boxes work? I see a lot in the catalogs. They =
even
claim MPEG 2. They've obviously got some encoder/decoder h/w onboard =
right?
Are they the way to go?
=20
I'm trying to keep the expenditure to around $200 or less, but will =
listen
to all ideas.
THANKS A MILLION for your feedback. It's going to be a Mythical =
Christmas!
=20
John
=20
=20
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Actually John, my site mentions the TVWonder PCI, and not the =
VE. I=20
had listed the TVWonder VE originally in my spec on that page, but =
changed it on=20
Issac's recommendation. The ability to do stereo preserves the =
dolby=20
surround for shows that support it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Also,=20
my TVWonder PCI has been working absolutely perfectly with no problems =
on my=20
machine. I have not had to do any weird things to get it working =
other=20
than just checking off v4l support in my kernel.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>So my=20
machine and the mythtv box are only slightly different (until=20
tomorrow...)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>Vid Cap =
card:<SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002> ATI TVWonder =
PCI</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>Video Out =
option (card or=20
external):<SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002> GeForce 2 MX400 (Asus V7100 =
pro or=20
Inno3D Tornado MX400)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>Audio =
card:<SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002> On-board ES1371 on my current box, SiS 730S =
chipset as=20
of tomorrow</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>CPU, RAM, =
HD:<SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002> AthlonXP 1700+ (vs. 1800+ on the GrooveBox), =
512MB=20
SDRAM (vs. 256MB on the GrooveBox), 40GB Maxtor (vs. 40GB WD on the=20
GrooveBox)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>Remote ctrl =
solution:<SPAN class=3D606245802-18122002> IRMan (vs. the homebrew lirc =
solution=20
for the GrooveBox)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>Linux =
variant:<SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002> Debian 3.0</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
size=3D2>Comments:<SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002> I will have more information for the list =
about how=20
the GrooveBox will work with MythTV soon. I am getting myself the=20
mainboard to test all the chipset functionality. Also, I highly =
recommend=20
the GeForce cards because of the nvtv =
app.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002>Hope this helps somewhat. I will be =
keeping my=20
GrooveBox page up to date, so feel free to check=20
back.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002>Cheers,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D606245802-18122002>Chris</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></SPAN>=
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
mythtv-dev-admin@snowman.net [mailto:mythtv-dev-admin@snowman.net] =
<B>On=20
Behalf Of </B>John<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:36=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> mythtv-dev@snowman.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[mythtv] TiVo=20
Out! MythTV In! Help me buy the right stuff...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Chris,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the tips.. I've =
checked out the=20
sites you mentioned below and the only hardware recommended is an =
ATI TV Wonder VE. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Is this the=20
best h/w to go with? I thought Isaac wasn't too hot on these =
cards?=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I noticed in the thread on the =
Buffer Flushing=20
that Harondel is using TWO tuner cards and a HARDWARE decoder (dxr3).=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This sounds like the way to go,=20
no?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I guess it would be REALLY useful if =
there was=20
someplace everyone could go and put in their H/W config and how their=20
performance is. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I searched the =
archives but=20
didn't find anyplace that everyone threw their 2 cents in. Bits =
and=20
pieces scattered here and there about this card or =
driver.</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>How about if people just chime in with their current:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vid Cap card:</DIV>
<DIV>Video Out option (card or external):</DIV>
<DIV>Audio card:</DIV>
<DIV>CPU, RAM, HD:</DIV>
<DIV>Remote ctrl solution:</DIV>
<DIV>Linux variant:</DIV>
<DIV>Comments:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>They can say how much cpu they're using up at a given res, how =
happy they=20
are with this config, how stable, if simultaneous record/play works=20
well, etc...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How about it? What's the best way to collect all this info =
from=20
everyone into one thread so we can all benefit and make the right =
decisions=20
for future hardware?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks!</DIV>
<DIV>John</DIV>
<DIV></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dchris@supermegaultragroovy.com=20
href=3D"mailto:chris@supermegaultragroovy.com">Chris Liscio</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dmythtv-dev@snowman.net=20
href=3D"mailto:mythtv-dev@snowman.net">mythtv-dev@snowman.net</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 17, =
2002 5:57=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [mythtv] TiVo =
Out! MythTV=20
In! Help me buy the right stuff...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747075522-17122002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Hi John,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747075522-17122002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747075522-17122002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Someone has set up a site at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.freeplaytv.org">www.freeplaytv.org</A>, and I am =
working on=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.supermegaultragroovy.com/mythbox">www.supermegaultragr=
oovy.com/mythbox</A>=20
to help people just like you that are going shopping for a new =
box. =20
You could either try a "buy everything that'll work" solution, or =
just use=20
the parts either of those sites list to build your own=20
machine.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747075522-17122002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747075522-17122002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Along with that, you can search the archives (a link is =
posted on <A=20
href=3D"http://www.mythtv.org">www.mythtv.org</A>) to help see if =
anything=20
particular is supported or not.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747075522-17122002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747075522-17122002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Hope this helps,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747075522-17122002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Chris</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
mythtv-dev-admin@snowman.net [mailto:mythtv-dev-admin@snowman.net] =
<B>On=20
Behalf Of </B>John<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 17, 2002 5:40 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B> mythtv-dev@snowman.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[mythtv] TiVo=20
Out! MythTV In! Help me buy the right =
stuff...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First time member of the list =
here, but hope=20
to be quite active. I need your help in selecting the =
right=20
equipment to setup my new MythTV system. I know that there =
are lots=20
of choices for video output, capture, remotes, etc. and don't want =
to make=20
a wrong decision. Thanks in advance for your =
help!</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>Background...</DIV>
<DIV>I currently have a ReplayTV and a TiVo. I'm going to be =
giving=20
the Tivo (which we like better than Replay by the way - actually =
we love=20
the Tivo) to my in-laws for a Christmas present. Reason =
we're giving=20
it away is 1) The "free" store demo programming subscription has =
expired=20
and we have to cough up $250 for lifetime which I just hate, 2) =
It's only=20
14 hours (and I know I could add a hard drive), my (retired) =
in-laws=20
really need this - they watch TV about 10 hours a day easy, the =
whole=20
family is going in on the $250 so the subscription is =
covered. =20
Anyway, after using both Replay and TiVo for over a year, our =
family=20
of four is totally SOLD on a PVR. They're simply =
awesome. Tivo=20
is the best and their remote and interface is =
outstanding. Well,=20
anyway, I really like the idea of using a PC with a network card =
wired=20
into our home network to our cable modem, and being able to edit =
out=20
commercials, send to other PCs in the house, etc. I think =
MythTv is=20
the answer. It blows away everything else out there.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Equipment...</DIV>
<DIV>I have recently freed up a Dell Dimension 8100 PIII-800 =
w/512mb RAM=20
and 80gb 7200rpm drive, SoundBlaster 64 PCI. I'll need to =
buy a=20
video capture card, video card with video out, and wireless=20
remote/recvr. This system will be sitting in our family room =
and=20
will be wired up to our TV at all times. I'll tuck the =
keyboard,=20
processor and 14" monitor out of the way for the occasional =
updates, etc.=20
but I want the remote to be the main control for daily use. =
That's=20
why it is so important that it's as powerful as possible. I =
know=20
that MythTV can make do with something like 4 =
arrows and=20
Enter, but if I've got a pause, play, rec, stop, ff, rew, =
skip back,=20
slow mo, last channel, vol up/down and channel up/down, I'll =
be all=20
set!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Typical Use...</DIV>
<DIV>We'll mostly use it for recording shows for later playback, =
and=20
timeshifting - watching shows delayed to eliminate the need for =
watching=20
commercials and allow pausing to do other things. We also =
want to be=20
able to watch pre-recorded shows while recording new live =
ones. Dual=20
tuners would be a fantastic addition, but I understand it requires =
h/w=20
assistance. Ok, so I'm game? I also like being =
able to=20
edit out commercials and then save to tape will be nice for those=20
"special" shows that we want to archive. The unit will get =
used a=20
LOT by our typical family of four (kids 12, 13) so a great =
interface=20
like MythTv is essential.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What I need...</DIV>
<DIV>I need you "experts" out there to help me go shopping! =
I=20
already bought and returned an ATI All-in-wonder 8500 DV. It =
worked,=20
but the on-screen guide was lame with ads filling up 1/3 of the =
screen, it=20
couldn't record live and play back pre-recorded shows =
simultaneously, a/v=20
got out of sync easily, and it crashed too much. So, I'm =
back to=20
square one. While I'm mainly a Windows s/w developer by =
profession,=20
I have tinkered with various flavors of Linux and am willing to =
reformat=20
the h.d. to any install you all recommend. The sole purpose =
of this=20
machine is a PVR so the O/S is irrelevant. Whatever flavor =
is most=20
"supported" and "stable" is all that counts.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So...</DIV>
<DIV>Can you please tell me, if you had to start making a clean =
fresh=20
system, what would be your recommended:</DIV>
<DIV>1) Capture card</DIV>
<DIV>2) Video output card (S-Video would be nice)</DIV>
<DIV>3) Remote control & receiver (the more powerful the=20
better!)</DIV>
<DIV>4) Linux version (stable and compatible is all I want)</DIV>
<DIV>5) Is there a hardware encoder/decoder card out =
there? If=20
so, which one to buy?</DIV>
<DIV>6) Do any of those USB boxes work? I see a lot in the=20
catalogs. They even claim MPEG 2. They've obviously =
got some=20
encoder/decoder h/w onboard right? Are they the way to =
go?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm trying to keep the expenditure to around $200 or less, =
but will=20
listen to all ideas.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>THANKS A MILLION for your feedback. It's going to =
be a=20
Mythical Christmas!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
=
<DIV></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></H=
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