[mythtv-users] Is there still a global padding option?

Tue Oct 2 02:51:36 UTC 2012

On 2/10/2012 11:31 AM, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 09/28/2012 05:03 PM, Michael Watson wrote:
>> On 29/09/2012 3:02 AM, Craig Treleaven wrote:
>>> At 5:20 PM +0100 9/28/12, Mike Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/12 13:25, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>>>>> On 09/27/2012 09:22 PM, Michael Watson wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/09/2012 10:40 PM, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But thanks for the additional proof that we have too many 
>>>>>>> settings to be
>>>>>>> useful and that it's too hard to find the settings, even when 
>>>>>>> you know they
>>>>>>> exist, and that "just add a setting" isn't a good choice for 
>>>>>>> solving future
>>>>>>> problems.  :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frontend > Setup > Video > Recording Priorities >
>>>>>> Set Recording Priorities > Page  1 is Scheduler Options,
>>>>>> followed by Pages 2 and 3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or more intuitive locations for existing/future options. Seems 
>>>>>> (to me) odd,
>>>>>> to look in Video for options to do with recording/scheduling.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, ignoring the fact that a lot of settings have been 
>>>>> moved/renamed to try to
>>>>> make them more "intuitive" and easier to find (and, yet, they 
>>>>> still aren't),
>>>>> that still doesn't help the other problem--that we have too many 
>>>>> settings for
>>>>> users to know what settings are available (not to mention the 
>>>>> effects of the
>>>>> interaction of different settings).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still a big believer that a setting is just a shortcut for 
>>>>> when the
>>>>> developer doesn't know (or doesn't feel like writing code for 
>>>>> figuring out) The
>>>>> Right Thing to do.  (And Apple seems to be proving that people are 
>>>>> happier with
>>>>> limited settings and "It Just Works".)
>> Maybe "it just works", but very frustrating to use.
>>>>>
>>>> That works for Apple because they only have a fixed, limited 
>>>> variety of hardware to program for and the hardware is all under 
>>>> Apple's control.
>>>
>>> No, Apple focused on simplicity because it was a key mantra of Steve 
>>> Jobs:
>>>
>>> http://www.socialnomics.net/2011/10/05/steve-jobs---10-lessons-in-life-leadership/ 
>>>
>>> Steve Jobs demanded that the iPod not have any buttons on it; 
>>> including an on/off switch. This seemed implausible for the 
>>> engineers working on the project, but Jobs wouldn't bend. The 
>>> engineers were pushed to their limits and as a result the scroll 
>>> wheel was inspired. Jobs indicates "that's been one of my mantras - 
>>> focus and simplicity. Simple can be harder than complex: You have to 
>>> work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it's 
>>> worth it in the end because once you get there, you can move 
>>> mountains."
>>>
>>> Myth, currently, is very much the opposite.  The pages and pages of 
>>> settings in Myth verge on incomprehensible.  Even stuff that I need 
>>> and use, I sometimes forget if the knob is in mythfrontend Settings 
>>> or in mythtv-setup--and I've been using Myth for over 6 years.  If 
>>> we took a sample of 1,000 active Myth installations, what percentage 
>>> of Myth's settings on each system are still at the delivered 
>>> default? I'd guess on each individual install, less than 15% of the 
>>> available settings are changed.  Of course, each individual knob is 
>>> somebody's sacred cow that can't possibly be eliminated.
>>>
>>> Fewer settings is a good thing--both for Myth and other consumer 
>>> gadgets.  Even if some resist.
>>
>> Just because you never change the radio station on you car radio, 
>> should that option be removed?
>> Just because you dont know where the toe-in adjustment on your car is 
>> (or what it does), should that be removed?
>> Should the Temperature setting be removed from your 
>> heater/airconditioner? (and just set to what the manufacturer wants 
>> it to be?)
>>
>> If you took a sample of 1000 Windows Users, or KDE Users, or Gnome 
>> Users, MythTV Users, the results would be fairly similar. This is not 
>> a good argument to rip out the "least popular" options.   Most of 
>> options/settings are there for a reason, some may be obscure (or 
>> forgotten), no reason to remove them, unless they are no longer 
>> required.  Remove all the options, and you have a system that works 
>> only the way the developers want (akin to an Apple Device), which is 
>> fine if that works for you, but frustrating if you want to change the 
>> behavior slightly to work with your hardware/timezone/channel 
>> listing/media/etc/etc/etc.
>
> I typed up a long response showing why the common arguments are 
> completely invalid.
>
> In the interest of avoiding a big argument, here's the short version:

Not wanting to create an argument, merely provoke discussion. Having 
worked with many dev's in professional life, I know that dev's think 
differently to users, (no offence intended).  Eg:  Ask a user and a dev 
to describe how to boil a water and compare the results.

>
> a) Nearly all of our "true" settings--including those "most loved" by 
> users--are settings that users only know how to set by trial and 
> error.  Rather than force users to try, see that it doesn't work, 
> change, test again, and repeat until they find the working setting, we 
> should be doing that testing automatically in the code and just use 
> the right setting.  These we're removing (so you don't have to know 
> whether or not your video hardware and drivers properly support 
> multi-texturing, vertex arrays, ...).

Or present user with "detected" (default) settings, and the ability to 
modify "detected" settings, unless you are 110% certain you can detect 
all possible scenarios.

>
> b) The "radio stations on the car radio" is primary functionality of 
> the radio device, just like recording TV is primary functionality of 
> MythTV.  We give you all the "settings" you need for that in terms of 
> channels (and their "settings" like channel numbers, channel names, 
> call signs, ...), recording rules (and all their "settings"), storage 
> groups, ...  We won't be taking those out /because/ they're primary 
> functionality of MythTV and need to be adjusted for the myriad of 
> locales/broadcasts/hardware/system configurations used by our users.  
> These we're keeping.

Is volume control, balance a primary function of a radio?
Does a car need toe in adjustments, just because the average "user" does 
not know what it does?

The Primary functions of MythTV are Scheduling, Recording, Playback of 
recorded content (and now that MythVideo is incorporated into MythTV, 
the playback of said video content is also a Primary function of MythTV).

>
> c) Where user-preference is involved, we also provide choices--such as 
> key bindings and UI and menu themes (and all of the "settings" exposed 
> through theming).  We just won't be providing a setting in the 
> settings screen to allow you to change your key bindings (you'll do 
> that through, er, changing your key bindings) or to allow you to 
> second-guess/break the well-tested theme design (you'll do that 
> through switching themes, changing the theme design, or creating your 
> own theme).  These we're keeping--but only in the place they belong.

but only in the place they belong.    A Good Start

>
> d) The remaining "true" settings not covered by a, b, and c, above, 
> are actually just placebos--like the completely broken "one preview 
> pixmap offset will work fine for all channels by all broadcasters from 
> all sources showing all types of content" setting that was removed 
> (and replaced by code that actually attempts to figure out a usable 
> in-show frame by taking into account things like start early/end late, 
> program start time, recording start time, commercial skip lists, and 
> cut lists actually gives much better results than blindly choosing a 
> single location to be used for all recordings (and, yes, I actually 
> did testing with many thousands of recordings to find we'd need 
> settings to allow control based on recording rule (type of program and 
> commercial-break timing--which actually even changes between seasons 
> of programs), channel (different ones use different formats for 
> breaks), video source (as there can be quite noticeable delays between 
> OTA and cable/satellite rebroadcasts), and more).  These we're 
> removing and replacing with code that does what we've since learned 
> the setting couldn't do (uses more information to get a better answer).

If its broken, fix or remove.

> And I won't even mention the fact that blaming the layout of our 
> settings pages for users being unable to know about/find/determine 
> effect of all of our existing settings doesn't help.  If you really 
> feel that's the problem, come up with a design that would mean I'm not 
> constantly quoting/pointing out/explaining settings on the list.  
> (However, since that's impossible, I plan to proceed with my current 
> replace the "I'll just make a setting and force the user to figure out 
> the right thing so I don't have to write so much code" with the /much 
> more/ code required to just Do The Right Thing plan.)

The fact that there is a need for you to "constantly quoting/pointing 
out/explaining settings on the list" indicates that the current layout 
is flawed, does it not?
Impossible to fix?  Maybe (but doubtful).  It can surely be reduced by 
more intuitive locations.
Renaming MythFrontend -> Setup -> Video to MythFrontend -> Setup -> 
Recording Options, would make a far more intuitive option than it 
currently is, (or is this merely a US -> AUS translation issue??

>
> Mike
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