[mythtv-users] Hauppage Analog Cards, alternatives?

[Colin McGregor]

On 9/3/08, Jeff Holicky <myth.myth_user at myth.sent.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:21:22 -0400, "Colin McGregor"
> <colin.mc151 at gmail.com> said:
>> On 9/1/08, Jeff Holicky <myth.myth_user at myth.sent.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:40:45 -0700, "Derek Archer"
>> > <eggman97132007 at mac.com> said:
>> >> Hi all, I just subscribed to the list so forgive me if this question
>> >> is already in the current discussions.
>> >>
>> >> I am looking to build a combination back/frontend box. I am currently
>> >> on analog cable and plan to remain so for the forseeable future. I
>> >> have been trying to find a good dual-tuner, dual-encoder analog card.
>> >> The Hauppauge PVR-500 is getting VERY difficult to find in my trials,
>> >> and I cannot even order them direct from Hauppauge anymore. Their
>> >> official word is the the FCC will not let them ship analog cards due
>> >> to the DTV transition. They suggested the HVR series, but as far as I
>> >> can tell, they are hit or miss on MythTV compatibility.
>> >>
>> >> One potential alternative I found is the AverMedia AverTV combo card,
>> >> which has an analog tuner w/ encoder as well as a QAM digital tuner.
>> >> It is PCI Express x1 card and I would like to know if anyone has had
>> >> any luck with this or similar cards from AverMedia, or any other
>> >> manufacturer. The resources online I have found seem to be somewhat
>> >> outdated in regards to these newer cards.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Derek
>> >
>> > I am just at the beginning to build my own MythTV system - and find the
>> > Hauppauge issues to be quite disturbing.
>> >
>> > First, on the FCC - sounds confusing to me.  Is there something (being
>> > in Canada EH?) that I am missing wrt analogue to digital conversion?  Is
>> > the US doing something that is above and beyond what we have in Canada?
>> > Right now I rent a cable box - from that I can use
>> > coax/video/s-video/(component maybe) - to the TV.  To me all that is
>> > analogue.  Digital would be via HDMI or some Firewire device.  But in
>> > the end we pay the cable company to get a coax - and then if we want to
>> > pony up - rent/buy a digital set top to get the extra channels.  (SD /
>> > HD).   Are my terms wrong?  Is S-VIDEO considered "digital" ?
>>
>> Your terms are more incomplete than wrong. In February 2009 all
>> regular analog over-the-air TV station in the US are to be shutdown,
>> in August 2011 the same is to happen in Canada. Most US stations and a
>> few Canadian stations are in addition to their regular analog
>> over-the-air signals are now also broadcasting a digital TV signal
>> over the air. If you want to continue to watch over-the-air TV after
>> the above cut-off dates you will have to have a TV with a tuner that
>> accepts and can deal with the ATSC digital signal, or you will need a
>> digital to analog converter box.
>>
>> The cable companies can continue to offer analog services after the
>> above cut-off dates, so anyone on cable can contine as is with analog
>> for the forseeable future.
>>
>> To return to terms, you can get an analog signal from HDMI, and
>> Firewire. Though coax you can get an analog, or in parts of Canada a
>> digital signal. Now to keep things messy some Canadian cable companies
>> are encrypting ALL digital signals sent down their coax lines (meaning
>> if you want to watch a digital signal from them you must pay a service
>> fee for a descrambler box).
>>
>> In my case I have a MythTV box set-up with two analog tuners (a
>> Hauppage PVR-150 and a PVR-350) connected to @#$% Rogers Cable here in
>> Toronto, ON, and one pcHDTV-5500 HDTV tuner card connected to an
>> outdoor antenna. So, I can watch digital TV from Toronto and Buffalo,
>> NY over-the-air stations. My MythTV box displays onto a Sony 26"
>> analog TV. In essence my MythTV box can be set to act like one of the
>> biggest / ugliest digital to analog converters going :-) .
>>
>> > In the US, is there some digital connection being forced by the FCC to
>> > be adopted?  I thought the FCC was merely removing the analogue
>> > broadcasts and forced people to get digital via an "OTA" "Satellite" or
>> > "Cable" set top boxes.  What does ANY of that have to do with the feed
>> > coming FROM those boxes to the TV?
>>
>> With the lead up to analog TV transmitters being shutdown the US FCC
>> has ordered an end to sales of analog only receivers. Receivers that
>> can do analog and digital are fine... This has a carry over here,
>> where the high end analog only tuners have become scarce...
>>
>> > Which brings me to the Hauppauge question - why would the 150, 250, 350,
>> > 500 (x50/500[/MCE]) units be phased out BECAUSE of the FCC?  The HVR
>> > seems to still use that old school analogue 125 channel input - so what
>> > is that all about?  Or is Hauppauge merely using the FCC notice as a
>> > method to phase out those units for newer ones?
>>
>> The HVR series can do analog and digital so are fine as far as the FCC
>> is concerned. The PVR series is analog only only, so the FCC has told
>> Hauppage to stop producing those...
>>
>> > Which now leads me to this - not sure at this date if any of the HVR
>> > units are supported (properly) by Myth.  I am starting to look for the
>> > 150-500 cards and already finding it hard to get a 250.  About 6m ago I
>> > asked and many suggested the 250 over the x50/500 was the better way to
>> > go.  I want to start with 2 set top boxes and eventually to 4 (could be
>> > 2x250 or 4x250 or 2x250, 2xHDHR etc etc).  Now what?
>>
>> Some of the HVR units are partially supported under MythTV. With a
>> number of digital TV tuner card one finds the digital TV support to be
>> good/excellent but support for the analog section of the card to be
>> poor/no-existant. This is true with my pcHDTV-5500 card, excellent
>> digital support under linux, but the analog section...
>>
>> > The other negative is the capital to get this all going properly - I was
>> > actually thinking of getting a retail 150 or 250 to hookup under WinXP
>> > until I am ready to move to the Myth system - but even that is a problem
>> > it seems.  Some suggest "instead of a 150/500 get the 150MCE / 500MCE" -
>> > I assume that works well with Myth but seeing as I am not running MCE -
>> > I assume my WinXP would not support those cards.  True?
>> >
>> > So big picture - anybody know of a game plan I should take - should I be
>> > waiting until the HVR cards are more mature wrt Myth/Linux development?
>> > Will I be able to buy 2 HVR cards and still record SD programming as I
>> > would with the x50/500 series?  (once the drivers are working well)?
>> >
>> > Sounds like getting an older x50/500 series card is not the right move
>> > today as I am buying legacy/future unsupported hardware.
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>>
>> If you get you TV via cable then for the forseeable future your good
>> with the PVR series cards (in fact collect them while you can). As for
>> digital cards, great stuff if you are in range of at least one over
>> the air digital TV station (GREAT picture quality). What messes things
>> up is the cable companies, if your local cable company scrambles
>> EVERYTHING then any digital tuner card is irrelevant when it comes to
>> cable TV (sigh).
>>
>> > Thanks
>> > jeff
>>
>> Colin McGregor
>
>
> Thanks to Kevin and yourself Colin for explaining the FCC related
> changes.  A buddy told me there is a "commercial broadcast" flag concept
> being floated around - to allow cable company PVRs to record but not
> home brew systems.  As Hammy Hamster would say "... but that's another
> story".

One of the selling points for me on the pcHDTV-5500 card was that it
ignores the broadcast flag. Any device that honours the broadcast flag
will not record stuff, if the broadcaster has set a signal for that
with the TV signal.

> I see you post to the Toronto thread - I live in Richmond Hill and use
> Ted Rogers (mind the sarcastic smile).  Are you suggesting Ted scrambles
> everything? :P

Rogers scrambles ALL digital signals in Toronto, and I gather most if
not all of the other places in which they operate in Canada :-( .

> Hopefully I can get some assistance to point me in the right direction
> of the PVR card to get - based on the limited offerings.
>
> 1) I would prefer getting one or more PVR 250 cards, if I can get them -
> I have read that they seem to offer better quality over the 150.

I have been happy with my PVR-150 card. No big secret, the PVR-150 was
intended to be a cost reduced version of the PVR-250.

> 2) My initial thought was that the 500 was merely 2x150 but at a reduced
> cost.  But I am seeing (please correct me) that the 500 is OKAY for --
> (a) unencrypted digital streams - where the dual tuner splits the signal
> from ONE coax in; or (b) straight non-digital analogue cable - whereby
> instead of having to have a splitter and plug 2 coax in the card, it
> takes one coax for the 2 tuners.

The PVR-500 (like the rest of the PVR series) can not deal with a
digital signal, these are analog only cards.

> My ultimate goal is up to 4 digital boxes - with say S-VIDEO (or best
> offering) out of the boxes.  If I could snap my fingers I'd have 4 SD
> tuners today.  I have a SD PVR from Rogers so I like the dual tuner
> ability; plus we have the single box.  No need for any HD yet.

The number of tuners you have in a MythTV box is only limited by the
number of expansion slots (and devices like the HDHomeRun allow you to
add some external tuners to a MythTV box). So for example I have a
PVR-150, PVR-350 and a pcHDTV-5500 all in one box and I still have two
free expansion slots that could take two more tuners :-) .

> I seem to have read that the 500 used to (on their website) have an
> extra header that provided a SECOND S-VIDEO IN.  In theory this card
> would be OKAY if I could plug in TWO S-VIDEO connectors.  Not sure if
> this can be confirmed or not.  Having a 500 and no extra header though
> would be a bother.
>
> 3) My next thought is the 350 - except it contains TV OUT (at a
> premium).  If in the end the 350 sits in the basement in a backend, why
> would i need that?  The only other thought is - as a stop gap before I
> get Myth going, the 350 would be good - under windows recording.

I have a PVR-350, long and strange story (which is not likely to be
repeated), but I got it as a freebee. I am using the 350 as just a TV
tuner card and I am ignoring the video out part of that card. If you
can get a PVR-350 for the same price (or less) than a PVR-250 or
PVR-150 grab it, as it is an excellent analog tuner. There are issues
with the video out section of the PVR-350 card and not worth the
bother in my books. Rather that use the video out on the PVR-350 I
would just get a low end nVidia GeForce card...

> 4) Leaves me (assuming I cannot get the 250) with getting the PVR-150
> card - say 2-3 of them for my needs.  As suggested I should be getting
> them now.
> The retail 150 includes an IR BLASTER as well - still haven't figured
> out if that is a bonus for Myth or merely a waste if I get LIRC
> available (a few 3rd parties offer LIRC connectors I have seen).  (can
> someone confirm this?)  White box OEMs are probably vanilla cards.

IR Blasters are good IF you need to control an external device like a
cable box. IR receivers are good if you want to use a TV type remote
to control your MythTV box...

> Lastly, can either of you clarify the models that are NON-MCE and MCE -
> I get the MCE (media center edition) - but I am not following on whether
> one flavor is better than the other.  I assume there are drivers for
> Linux for both.  What makes MCE better than NON-MCE?  (just a driver
> issue or actual hardware differences).  I assume I should get MCE
> regardless of what model of card I get?
>
> thanks again
> jeff

Colin McGregor