On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Simon Hobson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:linux@thehobsons.co.uk">linux@thehobsons.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div></div><div class="h5">David Lister wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
> Please remember that a lot of the developers are in the US, and the<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
list servers are in the US. It might be perfectly legal for you, but<br>
even assisting you to legally break encryption is a criminal offense<br>
in the US. We'd all like to say "stuff the DMCA", it's a bad law that<br>
criminalises several explicitly legal things - it it IS the law (in<br>
the US, and now effectively in the UK under a different name) and<br>
people coming under US jurisdiction have to bear it in mind.<br>
<br>
THAT is why the list owner has requested that such topics be<br>
off-limits on this list. The risk to the whole project is too great -<br>
just one thread assisting you to legally view the programs you are<br>
after would be enough to have the list servers seized, and the people<br>
who run it arrested.<br>
<br>
You now it's crap, I know it's crap, I think most people know it's<br>
crap - but that's the law<br>
</blockquote>
SIDENOTE: I happen to have an unused housed server - I'd be more than<br>
happy to setup a mailing list there, for exactly these kind of<br>
discussions (Linux-related). Let me know if you think it would be of<br>
some use.<br>
<br>
First off, I'm not after anything - my setup is working, I just joined<br>
the debate, because I wanted to bring some sanity into it. I hate the<br>
smell of fear and I hate it especially on public & democratic forums. Of<br>
course I know about all this, but except for a few zealots' fabrications<br>
and truth bending, there's nothing to talk about. I could accept your<br>
position on ethical merits, but not as a result of your scare tactics<br>
and anyway, not from a person who regularly _circumvents_ protections<br>
(e.g. playing DVD's on your Linux machines - CSS circumvention, didn't<br>
you know?!!!).<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div></div>
Actually I don't, what makes you think I do ? In any case, I'm not in the US myself and in the UK the legal system hasn't quite degenerated that far - but the twits in government are trying hard to catch up. It is true that I have most of my CDs on my MP3 player (I believe that's 'fair use' in the US, we have no such allowance in our copyright law).<div class="im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I can't remember any forum where talk about playing DVD's<br>
on Linux is forbidden and we're talking a "serious crime" here, not like<br>
100% legal use of SW CAM or HW CAM - inputs & outpus of which process<br>
are identical and NO circumvention, NO copyright law breach and NO<br>
illegal programming access takes place at all! Please, wake up and smell<br>
the coffee.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
The problem is that not all such use of a CAM&card is 'legal' in US law. It would depend on what the terms of service are, and many service providers will have small print in the contract restricting what you can do with their signal & card. Since a not insignificant use of such techniques IS by people breaching T&Cs, the list owner has stated that such discussions are off-topic through a desire to NOT get associated with the illegal uses of it AND to avoid any possible legal repercussions.<div class="im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Don't tell me you really believe that US government would seize this<br>
pathetic, yet public and somehow democratic, list just because the<br>
international community was discussing a perfectly legal TOPIC. Arrests?<br>
Are you out of your goddamn mind? :)<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
No I'm not "out of my goddamn mind". Have you been living on another planet for the last few years ? This isn't about what the government want, it's about what the well funded music/film/tv industry funded rottweiler lawyers want. I agree entirely about this "fear" business, but the way the DMCA is done, it only needs an accusation to start causing a lot of hassles and costs for those that run the list servers - and yes, the DMCA has already been used to stifle unwelcome comments with a "death by a thousand cuts".<br>
<br>
If discussions of how to use CAMs (soft or hard) in ways not authorised by the card issuers became common on this list then it would make the list a target for those rottweiler lawyers - causing hassle, disruption, and expense for the list owners. I can understand their wishes to avoid that.<div class="im">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
SW CAM use doesn't involve anything<br>
different from a standard HW CAM. In both cases, you feed it your<br>
subscription card, encrypted signal and you get the same decrypted MPEG<br>
stream. I understand you're mostly ignorant in matters of law, but come<br>
on! Even laymen should be able to grasp this. Where exactly is the<br>
illegal? I never found any DMCA paragraph actually dealing with this<br>
topic - even in the most general terms. Is it "illegal" (in your minds)<br>
to use CI+CAM with your DVB card? No?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
YES - if the supplier excludes such use in their T&C then it IS illegal under the DMCA. ANY time you remove a "technical protection" other than in accordance with permissions granted by the copyright owner then that IS a criminal act. That's why it's illegal (under DMCA in the US) to watch a CSS protected DVD on a Linux box in, but not illegal to watch the same disk, decrypted by the same key, with a licenced player.<br>
<br>
And you accuse me of being ignorant of the law !<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Perhaps it's because you are shitting your pants<br>
just thinking about it. The problem is that Americans are pathetically<br>
*afraid* of their government, and not just government - big corporations<br>
as well, from which nobody can and will protect them. How saaad!<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
People have good reason to be "cautious" of big business. Even Microsoft had to bend over and take it from the movie industry - well and truly screwing up video handling performance in Vista to placate them. Unless you've been on another planet, you'll know about the bullying tactics used by the laywers employed by the film and music industries in savaging people. You must know the ones I'm thinking of - suing old grannies who don't have a PC, ringing up schools and pretending to be a 10year old girls parent in order to 'interrogate' her, and claiming blatantly inflated 'damages', etc, etc, etc.<div class="im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
And when we're talking illegal, it's not just DVD's - your HD-PVR crap<br>
and recording via analog (blasters & firewire remote) actually *is* a<br>
copyright breach & so called "piracy".<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Actually, in the context, that isn't a crime. It's a breach of copyright which is a CIVIL matter (still, just). Once the signal is in the clear (eg the analogue) then it's not a criminal act under the DMCA to capture it, but it is an unlawful (different to illegal) act.<br>
<br>
Using a CAM+Card in a manner not authorised under the T&Cs of the supplier to get at the same signal IS a criminal act under DMCA - as well as being a copyright issue.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jelte Veldstra wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="im">
Please remember that a lot of the developers are in the US, and the list servers are in the US. It might be perfectly legal for you, but even assisting you to legally break encryption is a criminal offense in the US. We'd all like to say "stuff the DMCA", it's a bad law that criminalises several explicitly legal things - it it IS the law (in the US, and now effectively in the UK under a different name) and people coming under US jurisdiction have to bear it in mind.<br>
<br>
<br></div><div class="im">
I told I wouldn't mention it again, but can't help to respond to Simon's comment. The way I use my setup is not to "break" encryption! I pay a monthly subscription fee to the Satellite provider. They provide me with a subscription smartcard which gets updated each month (by the provider, as long as I pay may fee) with information to decrypt the encrypted DVB streams. This mechanism also makes sure that I can only decrypt what I pay for (e.g. no extra sports channels). This is fully in line with the end user terms of that provider, hence my claim on that it is legal. I can't imagine that this is illegal in the States<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Given that you say it's allowed by the providers T&C then it wouldn't be illegal. But note what's already been written, a lot of such use IS illegal and assisting illegal use would open up the list owners to potentially serious repercussions. Not to mention how easy it is for those with a vested interest in restricting what we can do to portray any project usable for illegal purposes as criminal itself - I'm sure you're aware how many often "bittorrent == criminal" is used by big business.<br>
<br>
The list owner has requested such discussion be off-topic, so even though in this instance it appears that it IS legal for you, the discussion is still not welcome.<div class="im"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Simon Hobson<br>
<br>
</div></blockquote><div><br><br>If you're going to talk terms and conditions, most cable providers in the US disallow recording when you sign up. I reckon this list should ban all talk about:<br>-playing dvds<br>-recording television that is not OTA<br>
-watching a show on more than 1 frontend at a time<br>-commercial skipping<br>-watching a show that has been recorded more than once<br> </div></div><br>