[mythtv-users] Can mythtv handle two dumb capture cards?

[Maarten]

On Thursday 22 July 2004 22:19, Isaac Richards wrote:
> On Thursday 22 July 2004 03:44 pm, Maarten wrote:
> > On Thursday 22 July 2004 21:05, Isaac Richards wrote:
> > > On Thursday 22 July 2004 02:38 pm, Maarten wrote:
> > > > On Thursday 22 July 2004 20:03, Isaac Richards wrote:

> I back up people who contribute to my project, yes, especially when they're
> right.  He was wrong when he said it doesn't log, of course, but you were
> also wrong when you said that the default behavior is to log.

So we were both kinda 'half wrong' ?  Okay, I can accept that.

> > Yeah ?  And can you then please quote me what the exact last sentence is
> > of chapter 9.2 which you are referring to now ?   Precisely...
>
> Do you have reading comprehension difficulties?  What does 'For example,
> you may add this' mean to you?  Does it say 'go out and do this right now'?
>  Does it say 'you must do this now or you will not have a working system'?
>
> Instead, it says:
>
> Once mythfilldatabase has finished, start the master server before
> continuing. $ mythbackend
>
> If the user does something beyond that, they're changing the defaults.

Maybe.  The other side of the coin is, you don't provide a start-script.
Not that you have to, per se.  But it is really rather confusing now; you ship 
a script with the tarball, you publicly document it, yet you deny taking 
responsibility for anything it does.  That -almost- sounds like microsoft 
behaviour: ship something with all the wrong defaults.  Not that I'd dare to 
compare Mythtv to microsoft but you get the idea. I hope.

> > You know, I do understand where this is coming from but you must
> > understand that joe average user will not -after the first trials- keep
> > starting mythbackend manually.
>
> Then they're changing the defaults.

Question: 
If a large amount of your users use a script which you shipped with your 
software, does that surprise you or not ?  So wouldn't it be simpler to set 
that script to sensible defaults before it gets shipped in the first place ?

> > So they will follow your instructions, hence click
> > the link to chapter 21 from chapter 9. They then will install the contrib
> > file -per the docs- and off they go.
>
> Again, changing the defaults.

"Per The Docs" !  You have insisted so so many times in so many threads that 
your mythtv.org Docs are the only official docs, so much so you don't want to 
even LINK to wiki sites or even Jarod.  Therefore, is it SO inconceivable for 
you that users treat those docs of yours -yes INcluding those appendices- as 
the Definitive Official True And Only Docs of Mythtv ?
The script is documented. IN the official docs. On your site.  That makes it 
rather authoritative in my book, and most users will agree with me here.

> > I have 8 years professional linux
> > experience; you don't need to tell ME how to en- or disable logging.  But
> > the fact of the matter is, you always hammer on readling the docs, and
> > rightly so.  But please be good enough to admit it when there is a slight
> > misalignment between what you say and what the docs say. It won't kill
> > ya. We didn't have to get into a flamewar over this, quite trivial,
> > little point.
>
> It's always funny when people get defensive enough to bring up how many
> years of experience they have with something, especially when it doesn't
> have anything to do with anything.

You're right, it doesn't.  Upon reading back I should maybe have omitted it, 
but you know how it is.  Anyway, I thought it was prudent to tell you that I 
wasn't some just-converted windowsXP newbie who wanted everything just the 
way they wanted it.  It was not meant to boast, nor boost my self-esteem ;-)

In the meantime, by focussing only on the "I have 8 years..." you have managed 
to not reply at all to what I wrote just below that.  And those two lines did 
deserve an answer, in my humble opinion...

> > From my viewpoint it's very simple: following your docs most people will
> > end up with a _logging_ mythbackend, never mind your good intentions and
> > how the app may have been compiled.   But I reckon, we cannot agree on
> > this ? Okay.
>
> And so will people who install binary rpms/debs and use their init scripts
> -- but it still doesn't change the fact that the default in the source is
> not to log to a file.

Well, the app-default is to log to the console, which isn't that much better 
seen as how much logging goes on on my system, like over 1100 lines per day. 
But that is beside the point.
So we come to this question, and that is obviously where our viewpoints 
differ:  Can / should any runlevel scripts be considered part of the package, 
or independent from it ?  And no, we don't agree, I gathered as much. ;-) 

> > Shall we just stop this now ?  I do like flames, but this is neither the
> > place nor the person, cause I admire your work and flames like this can
> > only end up badly.  And I have better threads to contribute to. So do
> > you, undoubtedly.
>
> You have better things to contribute?  Can't wait to see what.

Hehe.  I didn't say on THIS list.  But that can be explained, my expertise 
lies in networking and security and such stuff.  I cannot code myself out of 
an endless loop, so discussion on this list is rather a moot point for me:
* Most requests for enhancement are greeted with disdain, or even hostility.
* Most offers to help with documentation fail due to endless threads about 
where the docs should be (not in a wiki) and how to properly submit them.
* I've participated in too many threads about "how to choose mythtv hardware", 
so much so that I'd wish this list would fork into a separate one discussing 
yet the latest greatest Pundit whatnot blackbox. It gets quite tedious.

Meanwhile, I try to contribute where I can, when I'm not flooded with posts 
about stuff I've no interest in, like how to tune a 350s' TV-out or such.
Stuff about disks / raid / hardware / SuSE and bt8x8 cards I tend to read 
and / or reply to. My RFE's have stopped after the first try, obviously.
Even though I made some good points, if I may say so myself. 

Still, I'm not about to unsubscribe, partly because this project is really 
really amazing and I like to help in some way, and partly because I've got SO 
dependent on my mythtv box that I have not yet upgraded to 0.15 for fear it 
breaks my setup and I have to dust off the old crappy VCR. (the horror!)

Hope that accurately describes how much I'm in love with MythTV.
And sorry if I am a bit harsh sometimes... :-)

Maarten

-- 
Linux: Because rebooting is for adding hardware.