[mythtv-users] constant flames against people that are new to thelist - can't we all be adults here?

[Tim Harvey]

From: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=dearth
 
Dearth:
 Definition: [n]  an insufficient quantity or number
             [n]  a severe shortage (especially a shortage of food) 
  Synonyms:   famine, paucity, shortage 
  See Also:   deficiency, lack, scarceness, scarcity, want

Is this really the word you meant to use (seems not according to your
context ;) )?  There is certainly a TON of information on MythTV out
there, but most of it is poorly cataloged and presented.  Searching the
messages for example is difficult if you don't know what terms to search
for, and because of poor message headers.  Honestly, how long would it
take to read every single message in the archive?  Everything I read
would be outdated by the time I had finished that task.  Mythtv-users
has 16421 posts in 3759 threads on gossamer, and Mythtv-dev has 14541
posts in 2978 threads.  There is no excuse for someone not searching
this archive but I wouldn't tell anyone they have to read every message.
I probably monitored this project for a week before I even realized that
the gossamer archive was there... did not jump out at me at all when I
read the info page: http://www.mythtv.org/modules.php?name=MythInfo (I
clicked on the first link, even seeing the 2nd link to gossamer.  Note
the colors of the text chosen... links don't really jump out at you)

I have been monitoring this project for a couple of weeks now and I have
yet to come across an actual 'FAQ'.  The documentation accompanying the
project is great, but in my opinion is very technical and would either
a) confuse a lot of people, b) dissuade people from reading it fully

I think something that may solve some of the problems is to have an
actual FAQ and additionally have an actual 'userguide' for MythTV as the
documentation which currently is an installation guide.  I've found
myself having to go through the code to simply get a list of keybindings
for the various modules (outside of keys.txt).  This as well as
explanations of setup parameters would be the kind of thing that I would
expect to see in a userguide.  I realize that a lot of the 'overasked'
questions out there are most likely not questions that would be covered
in a userguide but I think that all of them would be covered in a
cleanly documented FAQ.  I've read over
http://www.mythtv.org/modules.php?name=MythInstall and your guide at
http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-page.php?pageName=rh9pvr250, which are
both excellent, a dozen times but they both still left me with a ton of
questions.

I'm certainly not complaining or anything... as I think this is a great
project.  I'm just pointing out some obvious documentation weaknesses
that I've found.  By no means am I a technical writer and being a
programmer I subscribe to the quote I saw on this list that
'Documentation is boring', but I'm willing to put together the start of
both of these documents in hopes that they can be maintained and have
patches submitted by us all as the rest of the project.

So anyway... look for a posting from me in the near future (emphasize
future more than near as I'm limited on time for another few weeks)
providing hopefully a good start to a 'MythTV FAQ' and 'MythTV
UserGuide', but certainly don't look at me to keep it up to date as I'm
anxious to get in and start coding ;)

Tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mythtv-users-bounces at mythtv.org [mailto:mythtv-users-
> bounces at mythtv.org] On Behalf Of Jarod C. Wilson
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 2:43 AM
> To: Discussion about mythtv
> Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] constant flames against people that are
new to
> thelist - can't we all be adults here?
> 
> On Wednesday, Oct 1, 2003, at 22:29 US/Pacific, Tim Harvey wrote:
> 
> > I think some of the people on this list need to take some anger
> > management courses, or just relax a little bit.
> 
> I don't think this is the case at all. I don't get angry, I get
> annoyed. It is annoying as all hell to have the same question asked
> over and over again. There's a dearth of documentation out there that
> half the people asking questions don't bother to read fully, and the
> mailing list archive they never bother to search. Perhaps some very
> clear guidelines should be laid out for everyone wanting to ask a
> question of the list. Maybe a disclaimer when anyone signs up: "Ask a
> question already covered in the docs or the mailing list, expect
> annoyed responses."
> 
> > Sometimes people miss things... other times they just don't read
every
> > detail.
> 
> Yes, that's the problem. People don't spend enough of THEIR time
> reading the details, and instead cop out and take up OTHER PEOPLES'
> time getting their question answered. Like someone else said, this is
> not a paid support forum. The onus is on users to read everything
> first, try to figure things out on their own, THEN ask questions. Some
> people just can't seem to figure that out.
> 
> > It doesn't help by flaming the hell out of people that are just
> > trying to contribute or use the product.
> 
> Not flaming. Instructing them on how to better contribute. Actually
> reading the manual and the mailing list archive, then asking questions
> that might help to improve the documentation or product would be far
> more of a contribution than asking the same question someone else
asked
> yesterday. Oh, and anyone that thinks something is missing from the
> documentation is ALWAYS welcome to submit a doc patch. I'm now
> contemplating heavily amending section 2 with instructions on what
> people should do before asking questions of the list...
> 
> > If it's really painful for people to read the same invalid
> > questions/statements... it must be more painful to take the effort
to
> > flame the senders?
> 
> It's for the good of us all. Most people asking all these questions
> won't figure it out unless someone makes it very obvious. These people
> can't even find the answers to questions on their own, so they likely
> aren't going to learn to stop asking the questions on their own.
> 
> > Just let them be.
> 
> Why, so they never learn, and keep posting the same questions that
have
> already been answered?
> 
> > Heck, if it really chaps your
> > hide, just hit 'next' or skip the thread completely, don't add to
the
> > bandwidth by flaming.
> 
> Again, trying to inform people of the right way to do things, not
> flaming them.
> 
> > If these messages are truly disturbing the list, then maybe
> > 'mythtv-users' shouldn't be a list.  Perhaps 'users' should be an
> > un-moderated forum, and dev/commit should stay a list?
> 
> Doesn't sound like the greatest of ideas to me. There are already
> community-created 3rd-party forums elsewhere, some of which are even
> geared toward newbies. Many users actually discuss useful things on
the
> users list.
> 
> > I'm a newbie to the list/project and thankfully (at least up until
now)
> > I haven't been flamed.
> 
> Congratulations. You're doing better than many. :)
> 
> > But heck, I'm scared to death to post also.
> 
> You shouldn't be. Just don't ask something that's already been
> answered. Thoroughly read the documentation and search the mailing
list
> archive, then ask if you haven't found what you're looking for, and
> chances are, you'll be clear of all possible flaming. Too many people
> just aren't following those steps.
> 
> > It shouldn't be that way.  I would think we want a friendly
community
> > here.
> 
> I've found it very friendly for the most part. Just not highly
tolerant
> of people repeatedly asking the same things over and over again that
> have already been covered (have I covered that over and over again yet
> in this message?).
> 
> Please note that I'm not trying to be an ass here, I'm merely trying
to
> express my point of view (though because of my point of view, some may
> consider me an ass; so be it). These are my personal thoughts, which
> may or may not be shared by everyone. However, I do know that many
> folks are sick of the people that only take, and never give anything
> back...
> 
> --Jarod
> 
> --
> Jarod C. Wilson, RHCE
> 
> Got a question? Read this first...
> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> 
> MythTV, Red Hat Linux 9 & ATrpms documentation:
> http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-page.php?pageName=rh9pvr250